'Religulous' asks a lot of questions
Please sir, may I have some Maher?
There's something funny about many religious institutions: you can't ask rational questions about the worldview or mission, you can't dissent and you definitely can't suggest that when it comes to the ephemeral mysteries of life, it is hubris to think we can know for sure. To do so is to be labeled an outsider and have your spiritual well-being called into question.
Luckily, when it comes to religion, Bill Maher is already an outsider. Raised Catholic and Jewish by ancestry, he is not only non-practicing but a professed (and fearless) non-believer. And so Maher can publicly ask the questions about our religious institutions that those of us who participate in them — or are merely respectful of them — cannot. And in his new documentary film, Religulous, that's exactly what Mahur does.
He goes from mosques in Jerusalem to the Vatican in Rome to a biblical theme park in Florida and talks to folks of various faiths and presses them on some very hard questions concerning not only their religions, but religion in general. By and large, the answers he receives do not address his core uneasiness with institutions that seem to reject reason (at least, reason as developed by the Enlightenment). Instead, the answers almost all seem to confirm that for the folks Maher is talking to (and indeed for a lot of the religious groups which they represent) minds have already been made up. Which underscores the point on which Maher's mind is already made up — namely, that if we don't overcome religious certitude, we are going to blow each other up.
It's a compelling argument… though to be fair, it's presented in a very one-sided way. The film often seems less interested in starting a dialogue or uncovering spiritual truths than in making fun of religious people and their beliefs. As a result, it will no doubt be polarizing. Those who are already skeptical or derisive of religion will embrace it as evidence of their righteousness while those those who would write it off without even seeing it will take it as evidence of theirs. And so the culture wars will continue until we blow each other up.
Most people will already have opinions about the movie and most will not even see it. I agree with Maher's approach with just asking questions, to which noone seems to give logical answers to, if they even answer the question at all. We see them respond with "Well, you just know" or "You just believe", "It just is" and "Its proven to be true".
Yes, he is mocking religion but he is not mocking the people that believe and THAT is important for believers/non-believers to keep in mind throughout the film. He says many times, "SoandSo you seem like a very intelligent person, how could you believe in something so irrational."
This is the point that gets so often overlooked. When I enter a discussion with someone about religion and there beliefs, I am not insulting them. I am just asking questions yet people are so easily offended and offput by this with the "How dare you ask me questions about my beliefs". That is the response Bill gets throughout the movie and 1 man even gets up and walks out because he is so "offended" by Bill asking simple questions to which these people can not answer.
I think the movie was great and agree whole-heartedly with the message that we need to get past our belief differences and realize that our beliefs/religious systems and institutions are going to be the undoing and ultimate ending of the human race.
Hmmm. I ask questions about my faith a lot, at least to myself and in my own head. I was just asking one this morning, actually. I've always thought it's a practical, natural thing to do. It's human. It's acceptable.
But, I don't really think it's fair for Mr. Maher to poke fun at religion. I don't think it's fair of ANYONE to poke fun of ANYONE'S religion. It's something to deeply emotional and so engrained in a person's core that insulting it in the smallest way is like pouring salt and lemon juice into an open wound. What gives Bill the right, eh? Well, I guess the First Amendment gives him the "right" technically, but ethically, what gives him the right? Does he care so much about stirring the pot and creating scandal and controversy that he would ignore all the toes he stamps on and faces he slaps?
I know. The answer is that he doesn't care. He's a free spirit.
We poke fun and ask questions about everything else in this world, why can't we talk about religion. I think that is the core of the problem. It's ok to talk and make fun of everything else for a good joke but how dare you make fun of "My personal and special relationship with god." How dare you ask questions.
This simply amazes me how some of the smartest and most intellectual people I know refuse to answer questions and just become offended when you ask a simple question.
Not to mention that if Christianity/Catholocism are so great and grand, why can't we have these discussions so the faithful can share thoughts and help spread the word?? A couple people on WUNT do a great job of that. They actually engage in debate rather than, how dare you ask me a question………to which I don't know the answer but I believe it's probably right therefore I am going to say you offended me and hide behind my "I'm insulted, this is personal" shield.
One of Bill's main points in the movie is that we simply do not know the answers and he is just asking questions to prove that point.
Kiley, I agree with you 100% that poking fun at a person's religion is not cool. (Unless, of course, you are giving an affectionate put-down to a friendly Catholic, Morman, Jew or Muslim.) I felt very uneasy with the parts of this film that seem to be taking cheap shots at faith and people of faith. It is completely understandable why anyone would take deep offense at someone they see as being blatantly disrespectful of something so personal and so precious. On the whole, though, I have to say the film is not nearly as crass as you might think and worth seeing and talking about.
What concerns me is that these type of discussions typically do not take place within religious institutions. While his conclusion that it's all nonsense and make-believe is not compelling to me, Maher's basic critique could have easily come from an iconoclastic Christian perspective. A certain reading of the Jesus story even casts him as a critic of religion! Even setting aside concerns about nuclear annihilation at the hands of polarized religious groups eager to rush toward the end times, from an evangelical perspective, a strict fundamentalist or literalist approach to religious tradition is simply not compelling to a great many people.
Dear all,
First off, no, I haven't watched the movie and no, I don't plan to. I know what Bill Maher is like, so I'm sure I can get the gist.
The previews have said enough for me. In his consistent one-sided, cynical way, he asks questions that require more than a one-second answer. OR, he makes statements that are unfair because of the imagery he associates with them: e.g. Holy Land with bombs going off.
One of the great problems is that a lot of people aren't going to be prepared to give an answer to difficult questions, even sometimes questions they have known the answers to but haven't been confronted with recently.
Another great problem is the ability to EDIT while already having a preconceived conclusion in mind. That is, he'll make someone look like an idiot because that's his goal.
Lastly, why go to people on the street (as he appears to do)? Why not go to those who have devoted their lives to apologetics? To represent Christian answers, how about Ravi Zacharias?
100% agreement that the movie is one-sided and that it has preconcieved notions behind it, many of which I do not agree with.
In defense of the film (I did give it a high rating, after all), one of the reasons Maher has trouble talking to the leaders of religious organizations like the Morman church, the church of Scientology, the Roman Catholic church or the many smaller, non-denominational evangelical groups is because these officials likewise know what Bill Maher is like. I'm not sure Ravi would agree to a Maher interview (not a criticism of Ravi, I'm not sure Maher would take his call either). In this culture war, the two sides are so polarized they might as well be speaking different languages.
What troubles me is that the stakes are high. Some "goofy" religious beliefs are harmless — I'm not losing any sleep over the guy Maher talks to in Denmark who believes marijuana is a gateway to talking to God. However, I am very concerned about violent or oppressive fundamentalists of any religion. From that perspective, I think imagery of bombs going off is fair game.
I don't know if that's fair game. There are those who claim that Islam is a religion of peace. So at least for those Muslims, it's unfair to tag imagery of explosions to them.
That doesn't mean that I believe they are being consistent with their religion. It has a very violent history from its conception: Muhammad spread Islam with the sword, not a message of peace and good news. (Note that Christianity was NOT spread with the sword at its conception, but with a real message of peace and good news by the apostles.) Furthermore, I do believe that the Qur'an teaches revenge on those who have somehow wronged Muslims (strangely, this gets applied to the West, Christians and Jews in particular, so their "revenge" is seen in events like 9/11).
Nathan,
What do you know about Islam except stereotypes?
Xnity has a violent history from it's beginning, too. Just ask God about it when you pray at Planned Parenthood today.
We are not meant to know everything…if we did, what would be the point of faith? And what would be the point of having free will? And if God does not exist, what is our purpose here on earth? Where do we go after we die? And how does it all correlate?
God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. That does not mean that what man does in His name is right though. God is perfect, man is not. I don't believe in most of the wars that are carried out in God's name. I don't believe in a God that condones killing or forcing people to believe in Him. My God is merciful and just. He is not an angry dictator who wishes to ruin our world or rule "by the sword".
I don't think there is any reason to get ugly with one another. You each have very different views, but there is no reason you two can't talk through this like reasonable adults.
Wendy,
Are you stupid or just presumptuous? It seems you are both by that ridiculous comment.
I've studied Islam and have a Qur'an. Would you like me to quote the verses of revenge I referred to? Or would you like a history lesson on the life of Muhammad? Because it seems you are in dire need of it.
Muhammad founded Islam. He spread it with the sword. He wrote the Qur'an, and the Qur'an teaches revenge on Christians and Jews.
You might have noticed I didn't say anything about Hinduism or Taoism because I haven't studied anything about those. I don't say things I can't back up. You'd be wise to do the same.
Let me ask you, what does a person who feels he needs to bomb an abortion clinic have to do with the foundation of Christianity? Are those people hypocrites? Of course.
Tell me something. How many people did Peter murder in Chaldea? How many Indian villages did Thomas pillage and burn? How many riots did Joseph of Arimathea or Mary Magdalene incite in Gaul or Britain? How about Paul after his conversion to Christ? And how many people did Jesus slaughter?
Wendy, your comments are hardly insightful. They're based entirely on your hatred for Christianity because it inhibits the sinful lifestyle you so preciously want to live.
I don't hate Christianity, Nathan. I really don't. My entire FAMILY is Christian. I dislike people like you who are judgmental and refuse to use their brains.
It's just really sad to see you throw out insults for every other religion but when someone comprimises yours you flip out entirely, spewing hatred and insults(calling someone stupid is not a very Jesus-like thing to do, now is it?). Not only that, but your recollection of history is grossly tainted and warped.
You ask for people to not be so one-sided, but that is how you act CONSISTENTLY.
I have great respect for those people of faith who are genuine, kind and not hypocritical. But there are too many like you, Nathan Proud, and you are not doing a very good job of defending your religion. You probably turn a lot of people off to Christianity.
I don't dislike Christians.
I dislike Christians like you.
Missy, I agree with EVERYTHING you've said and I value your opinion. Thank you for being kind and openminded. :)
Wendy, you need to use your own mind a bit more.
Yes, I came off as pretty hostile, and I apologize. But the reason I did is because you made a very snide comment that was completely baseless. You made bad assumptions about me.
Would you like to correct my history? Will you really try to show me that Muhammad went from village to village with a scroll and mission to help the unfortunate? Will you try to rewrite history and say that he didn't in fact slaughter villages while exclaiming, "Allahu akbarun!"
Will you further try to rewrite history and say that Peter, Paul, Thomas, Joseph of Arimathea, Mary Magdalene, John, etc. spread the Gospel with the sword?
Have you read the Qur'an? Do you even know the verses I'm alluding to or their context? I really don't think you do.
What you are doing is taking the standard liberal apology for everything and trying to apply it against historical truth. Do you see what I'm saying? Believe me when I say I'm not yelling these words I'm typing. I'm trying to get some valid dialogue.
You can't simply make something up and repeat it so often that it becomes true. Now, there are a lot of people who believe the lie that Muhammad was peaceful. I think you're one of them. But if you bother to read what the historians wrote (not modern historians who think they can make peace with Islam by portraying it as a love-based religion), you will see that he was a very violent man.
I can understand you disliking me because I'm pretty rough. That's just my personality. I'm impulsive and don't always season my words with salt like Joey does so well. But I think you REALLY dislike me because, in addition to my crass tendency, I present facts you can't refute. So you give some liberal mantra and hope it doesn't get dismantled.
You probably think I would actually bomb an abortion clinic, don't you? If you knew me in real life, you would know better. Ask someone who DOES know me. Ray would be a good person to ask.
Nathan,
I have been watching this discussion from a distance but I feel it is necessary to step in.
I do not have much to say to you, but this: I am a Christian and disheartened by your words, beliefs and apparant hypocracy. As a Christian I feel it is my place to step in and say this: Jesus would not act the way you do or say the things you have been saying. Please stop giving a bad name to Christians.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Wendy,
I admire your desire to ask questions use your mind. I am sorry that my Christian brother has acted in this way. There are plenty of good Christian's out there, as you have noted. Please don't think we are all like that.
I will not be visiting this website again because you have turned me off to it.
Jeremy
Well, I guess we shouldn't expect to see Jeremy back around here then, so I have a question for anybody who would care to answer:
is anything I said about Islam or Christianity here untrue?
Do I sometimes let my temper get the best of me? Sure. Do snide comments get me upset? Yes. But is anything that I said about Muhammad or the Qur'an untrue? Or am I wrong about Jesus, His apostles, and/or His disciples?
AFTER ALL, the topic of our comments is or originated from the movie "Religulous." Bill Maher is clearly a crass and cynical person. Was his movie a misrepresentation of Islam or Christianity or both? Or is the Bible or the Qur'an consistent with the picture he paints? What about their leaders or founders?
These are valid questions. Will anybody answer them, or will I just get more responses with rude half-wit that portray me as a stereotypical extremist?
Jeremy, if you DO come back, don't you as a Christian have a problem with a religion that takes Christ from His rightful place as God, Creator, and Messiah, and says He was just a man? Don't you have a problem with Muhammad taking a pagan moon god and exalting him to be the same one God as Yahweh?
And Jeremy, you should read Wendy's and my exchange on her article about "common Christianity" affecting our moral and intellectual integrity. She knew exactly what I meant above but was seeking to provoke me. Unfortunately, she succeeded.
Nathan,
I guess you could say I am trying to provoke you. I know you'll take this the wrong way, but you should really stretch beyond the Bible. As a Christian, it's necessary for you to be able to communicate with the large population who does not feel the way you are.
I can come at you with logic, historical evidence and countless quotes from Christians/non-Christians alike, but you will never go beyond your bible.
Again, you can choose to take this however you like, but I have seen your case too many times. Your God of the gaps, your cosmic sugar daddy, divine santa claus is childish. Not only that, but your mentality refuses to let you use your brain.
You tell me I am stupid and don't use my brain. But here is the thing: I am racking my brain for answers to the countless questions I have. I have studied myriad religions, especially Christianity because it is a faith I once found solace in. You may ask "What changed?" Well…I began thinking. I challenged myself and what I am left with is "I really don't know." I don't know if God exists. I can see how God could exist, but there is also overwhelming evidence that God does not exist.
What I have narrowed my beliefs down to is this: IF a God exists, it is a God like Tillich explains and similar to that of the Daoist take on God.
You will never, ever ever change my mind. The questions I have and the evidence I have gathered will not be swayed by a Bible verse or extremist (yes, you are extreme) interpretation.
With that said, you are in no position to listen to me, either. So with that I think we can call a truece. You are stubborn in your Christian ideas and I am stubborn in my decision to keep looking for answers.
I will not be talking about this issue with you further.
And Jeremy, if you read this, thank you.
Wendy,
- you will never go beyond your bible.
= Really? Was I constantly quoting the Bible in the comments under your article?
- I have seen your case too many times.
= Trust me. I've seen so many people like you who claim to be independent thinkers but really aren't.
- divine santa claus
= Do you have reason to believe I see God that way? Other than your stereotype, that is.
- Well…I began thinking.
= Have you thought of any answers to the questions I asked above? I'm still waiting for those. Or are you just opposing anything I say because it doesn't fit into your liberal worldview? Be honest.
- The questions I have and the evidence I have gathered will not be swayed by a Bible verse or extremist (yes, you are extreme) interpretation.
= How is literal extreme? And I know I won't persuade you, especially not DURING any debate. I also know you won't listen to the Bible because of how calloussed you've become to Christianity (yes, Christianity). I figured that from the beginning, which is why I've used philosophical language and logical arguments that you've largely ignored. EVEN NOW you are ignoring my questions and pretending you don't have to answer them! Why don't you give it a try if you are so sure that Islam is a wonderful peaceful religion and Christianity is a horrible murderous one.
you're going in circles.
Wendy,
I hope you know I appreciate you, because you desire truth. I hope you know that I appreciate Nathan also, because he does not compromise truth. And I appreciate Ray, of course, because he's simply awesome and has created quite the website here. Its safe to say that Naptown is well on its way to waking up, even spiritually, which is great!
I also appreciate your decision to keep looking for answers. In that spirit, I wonder if you would be willing to listen to a sermon that I think might at least change your perspective of what Christianity is entirely. Its called The Prodigal Sons. Tim Keller, a Pastor in Manhattan, has a lot more experience than Nathan or I talking to, reasoning with, and loving, people who doubt Christianity, like yourself. His main point is that Christianity is not religion or irreligion, but something else.
I hope that you would be willing to check this out, otherwise your decision to keep looking for answers has an exception in the answers offered by the Person of Jesus Christ, which is not only silly, but also tragic.
I would certainly lead Bill Maher to the same resource if I were given the opportunity. He may not have heard anything like it before (similar to most people with his perspective, which is a shame and a mistake of the Church). It is about 38 minutes long. In the end, not that big of a commitment if the answers offer eternal significance. If this is too big a commitment for you, this book by Tim Keller I think would also be very interesting and helpful.
http://thereasonforgod.com/
The sermon and the book are both on this website. In fact, if you're really interested, you could spend a long time on this website and I don't think you'd regret it. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You will do what you will do. I'll be praying for you in your search.
Joey
I'll check it out.
Will you check out one of my favorite sermons by Bishop Spong?
Nathan, to answer your question about Islam: Yes, I think your accusations are unfounded and make you look like a bigot.
Here is a wonderful SERMON about Islam. Enjoy it:
christ-community.n…s/sermon08_03_08.htm
Of course, I would check out anything you give me. Though, I would need a link.
http://kr.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug&NR=1
Spong wrote a book called "The Terrible Texts" and this is one of my favorite sermons ever. I know it by heart.
Wendy, no. That isn't an answer. It is absolutely recorded in history that Muhammad spread Islam with the sword. I'm not surprised to see that you won't try to refute that, but I am mildly surprised that an "independent thinker" like yourself would stick with the new liberal apology that Islam is a peaceful religion given that you have no facts to contradict what I said about its beginnings!
You also said nothing about the verses I alluded to.
In other words, you can't defend your stance so you just call me a bigot. Very nice.
Nathan,
You have a sharp tongue for someone who claims peace. I've had hundreds of conversations with Christians and non-Christians alike and I can easily say that you are the in a close race for most offensive,most un Christ-like and most stubborn.
I never said that Islam was a 100% peaceful religion. I think it is grossly misinterpreted by the scared west, though.
My main point in all this is that Xnity is not clean itself. Can you not accept that Xnity, along with many other religions, has a violent history?
Why are you so hostile against other religions but spew scathing words when someone confronts you about your own?
There are COUNTLESS Bible verses in the OT that are incredibly violent. Story of the Egyptians, God killing off everyone/everything with a flood (except the fishes, they aren't evil or anything), you've got God damning people left and right and there is no excuse. It's written in your own hellacious Bible (I've read the whole thing, FYI).
But since you claim that it's the NT that matters (why keep the old, then?), then all that stuff doesn't matter? Oh, you cling so dearly to your beloved 10 commandments (name them all in order without looking - and even if you could I bet you'll leave out a few key parts taken out of the recent editions).
So, Nathan, I have one bible verse for you. It's in the gospel of Matthew and is spoken by Jesus Christ himself.
MATTHEW
10:34
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a sword."
Have fun with that one.
This is getting a little too personal so I'm going to lock this thread. Let's try to keep discussions here civil and dispassionate.
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